May is a big month for homebrewing in Edmonton, with the year's biggest homemade beer competition taking place from the 22nd to the 25th. To prepare suds enthusiasts for the thrills, spills, cheers, and beers of the 2013 Aurora Brewing competition, this month's episode of Talking Pints features one of Edmonton's many fermentation fiends and carboy kings, the excellent and eminent Ernie Boffa.

Beer, as Benjamin Franklin said, is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. If he's right, we ought to spread the good news to all and sundry – but far too often, the portion of the population that experts describe as "female" gets left out of beer production and consumption. In this episode of Talking Pints, we sit down with Shelley Hall Zenew of Yukon Brewing to investigate the fairer sex's relationship with the greatest of all beverages.

Coming to you live from a dirigible somewhere over Westlock, this is the April episode of Sherbrooke Liquor's Talking Pints. I'm Lewis Kelly and my guest this month is Shelley Hall Zenew, an Edmonton sales rep for Yukon Brewing. Shelley came on the show to talk about the way the world of beer looks to someone without a Y-chromosome. Women make up around twenty percent of regular beer-drinkers and, every so often, marketing sooth-sayers proclaim that women will start drinking more malted beverages, but... this really has yet to happen. My conversation with Shelley wound its way toward sexism in the industry, eventually, but first, there were delicious beers to open. Hi Shelley.

 

Hello.

 

How you doin'?

 

I'm good, how're you?

 

I'm great, thank you, especially because we have an excellent selection of stouts to drink here. Why don't we start with the most exotic one- I am holding, now, a bottle of La Vache Folle from Charlevoix's, in Quebec. An imperial milk stout. We are drinking this because you are a fan of stouts. While I'm pouring us a sample, why don't you tell us how you came to love stouts?

 

I was never a beer-drinker, until about four years ago. One of the first beers that was ever poured from me was a darker beer, and I kinda went, “Hey, hmm, combining chocolate and coffee- two of my favourite things- with an alcoholic beverage. This can't be bad!” I like the complexity of it- I'm not a bitter fan, so the smoothness and the maltiness of a stout appealed to me and it's basically what I drink in the beer world now.

 

See, that's very interesting to me- do you know why you didn't drink beer for the period that you didn't and then, what it was about that particular sample that converted you?

 

I think that- obviously, when I started drinking, which was many, many years ago- the only few things that were available to me were the lagers, that were very much flavourless and it was about quantity over quality. I was always a party-drinker. Never really went into beer- it just never really did much for me. I married a gentleman from the Pacific Northwest --so therefore he has a very diverse background in beer-- and he probably just told me to drink it, and not complain. The first beer I remember from him giving me was a Moose Drool Brown Ale from Big Sky, in Montana.

 

Wow. Moose Drool- I've never heard of that, but it sounds interesting.

 

It is. It's a heavier brown ale, but it was the featured beer at our wedding.

 

Oh wow. You must have been fan of it then- I will drink to that. Cheers.

 

[CLINK]

 

Mm. Now I can never remember- milk stouts hove milk protein in them, don't they?

 

Yes.

 

At some point?

 

Yes.

 

I believe it's lactose, yes.

 

Yes. So I'm not exactly sure where in the brewing process, and I think there's probably an arguing point on them- 'cause I think brewmasters all have their little secrets. So some may put them in earlier, some may put them in later, but yeast can't ferment off  'em.

 

Oh. I suppose I have to open another one of these stouts --we have three, I should say-- the next one, let's do Midnight Sun from Yukon, which is an espresso stout. How does espresso enter into making beer? Please tell me.

 

Some breweries do actually add coffee to them, whether it be ground coffee, do it on a bed of coffee beans- that type of thing. We do not. The coffee part --the coffee flavouring, just as the chocolate flavouring-- is imparted by roasted grains, rather than malted barley. Generally it's all barley, but malting it is drying it, roasting it is truly burning it.

 

Ok. Oh I didn't know that.

 

So a lot like coffee: the longer you roast it, different flavours come out of it. Our Midnight Sun has a very, very dark, almost black malt in it.

 

Yeah. But there's no actual coffee in the espresso stout-

 

There is no actual coffee.

 

Go figure.

 

Is that the case for other- you know, you see coffee stouts, obviously, a lot-

 

Mhmm, mhm.

 

Most of them don't actually have coffee in it.

 

A lot of them don't. I do know a couple that do- Rogue's Double Mocha does have coffee and chocolate in it. It is an acceptable additive to craft brewing. It does still keep it as considered a craft or micro-brewed beer. Some of them do it as, you know, as a special run. But most of it is how your taste buds are set up on your palate- that you control those different flavours.

 

Well, are there other examples? Maybe I shouldn't ask you to reveal trade secrets here but --as someone with a- pretty much just a consumer-level understanding of beer-- are there other flavours I'm out there buying and I think I'm getting authentic pineapple,  and it's actually just a roasted grain in another fashion or something like that?

 

A lot of caramels.

 

Yeah.

 

Anything that's a caramel flavour comes from the grains. It's all the different ways that they are dried and roasted, so anything that's, say, a red or Viennese style- that's got that real, true, red colour to it- that comes from the grains that are used, and the caramel flavours come from the grain.

 

Oh, that's interesting, well, toast again to consumer deception!

 

[CLINK]

 

One of my favourites, still. That's why I fell in love with Yukon.

 

You like it more than the La Vache Folle, there?

 

Completely different beers- one is sweet and smooth. I like the bitterness and the sharpness of the finish of most espresso stouts- ours in particular. It kinda reminds you that you're drinking beer. 'Cause it's got enough hop in it that you still have that feel that it's truly a beer product.

 

Certainly don't associate hop flavour with most stouts. Here, let's round out the trio and get everything opened up. This is a bottle of Three Bears Oatmeal Stout from Alley Kat, which is a beer that still kind of causes painful memories for me, I must say; Alley Kat held a contest to name this beer on Facebook, I think it was --I think three years ago, I would like to say-- and you submitted names and, through some mysterious process, they came up with the winner. Oh, and you put a tagline with your name. They said, you know, they were going with oatmeal. “Goldilocks Stout: Because it's just right” was my tagline. And I thought, you know, I was looking at the other entries and I was like, pfft, I'm way ahead- this is gonna to win! And then the day came and, lo and behold, the winner was Three Bears, and I strongly considered pressing charges for a while but eventually deferred, so.

 

Yes, yes. It is one of Alley Kat's, I would say, better brews. There's just something about it- I can't drink enough of them in one sitting. Neil nailed it with this one.

 

It's a winner, for sure. And it's interesting: when you get a series of stouts lined up, or I guess any style of beer, you can really appreciate the contrast in the way that I, at least, struggle to when I'm just having them kind of one off, months apart or whatever, you know. Anyway, I suppose I ought to ask: how did you come to work for Yukon, in the first place?

 

I started, actually, in the industry four- almost five- years ago, with another local micro-brewery. It unfortunately had to close doors and move to a new town --didn't take me with it-- and Dave, who has been the Edmonton rep for probably twelve years, came knocking on my door. He wanted me on his team partly because he wanted a younger female on it --because the craft brew market is very much growing in women and women consumers-- and also I bring marketing and promotions to the table (which is my background. Sales is not my background.) We're looking at trying to build a different team so that Yukon can be out doing events, sponsors… that type of thing. So that it's not just sales and retail in lounges, it's actually getting out into the community.

 

Ok. Besides from the growing female consumer base of craft beer, which we'll get to in a second, I'm curious to know: in your five years in the industry, what's the gender balance like as far as people who work making and selling craft beer?

 

When I was at the original brewery I was the only female, and from what I could tell there was really only three of us in the province: two in management, and one as a brewmaster, at Grizzly Paw in Canmore, so-

 

Oh that's cool.

 

I still think that Michelle is the only female brewmaster. I know that there are a couple more coming online.

 

Tell me --I've always wondered-- how does one actually go about becoming a brewmaster? Do you have to kill another brewmaster, or is there some kind of ceremony that takes place, or what?

 

I'm not exactly sure how you get to become a brewmaster at a brewery, but I do know that there are a number of courses- a number of classes. Olds College has one; there's one in the east, in Ontario; you can go all the way to Europe, of course- there's a number of them in Europe; there's also one in Chicago; and I know you can actually do part of it online in distance learning. So, it's open to everybody and I think we'll see more and more. There's a couple of home-brewers that I know that maybe should take the plunge and actually become certified brewmasters, just to expand.

 

Do you do any home-brewing yourself?

 

No, I do a lot of home-consuming.

 

That's just as good, I suppose.

 

Yukon, itself- there are three women within the organization, currently. One is marketing manager, one works in a retail store, and myself. But in the past we have had women in the production area as well. People don't really quite understand the physical nature of micro-brewing and that it does…it does take a lot of upper body strength. So there are some jobs the maybe some women can't do. As technology does improve, there's not as much shovelling and raking and dumping of grain bins and that type of thing. But I think you're going to see more of it because women are becoming interested in different career paths, and they will bring something completely different to the craft market.

 

How will that change the beer that gets made and drunk?

 

I don't think it'll change much other than you may just see more options. I think women are more about quality than quantity, in a lot of things, so you may see maybe a divergence from the trend. They would probably be a little more trend-setting. The trend right now seems to be a lot of very over-hopped IPAs, a la the Pacific Northwest. I think if you see women in the industry they may make some changes and steer things a little different. We often don't go with the mainstream and the flow of things; we like to stir things up.

 

Steer thing towards stouts more, perhaps, or what?

 

When I run a show and I have women come up to me, tell me that they don't drink beer; they're adamant they don't drink beer. Beer is, you know, next to evil. I always ask them what kind of flavours they like. Most of them like chocolate, coffee, vanilla- so I always will give them one of our darker products, whether it be a true stout or a dark ale, because that's where our palate generally goes. So I do think that if a woman ran a brewery, or was more involved in the brewing process, you might see some darker beers- creamier, with more of a mouth-feel, and less fruit flavoured products.

 

Just as an aside, can you explain to me what “mouth-feel” is, because I've never quite grasped that.

 

It's one of those catch phrases that we use. It's really just how it feels in your mouth and it's the thickness of it. People will always tell you that Guinness has a very heavy mouth-feel. And it does, it's got a… when you take a swallow of Guinness you can feel it. It stays in your mouth a little bit longer. The darker the beer, generally- the creamier, it just kind of lingers.

 

I was going to say, it's interesting to me that you give women stouts when they come up and say, “I hate beer. It's next to turpentine on the list of things I wanna drink,” because I feel like the tendency is to give women in that situation, you know, a very sweet, fruit flavoured beer, that aren't much like most other beers.

 

Well, I think it's all because that's how it's marketed. Most people follow the trend of what's being marketed. When somebody in the upper echelons of one of the major brewing companies decided, “Let's attract women,” one of the first things they did was sat down as a group and decided they were going to make a beer for women. And the first thing they determined was it was going to be pink.

 

Yeah.

 

It didn't even get off the shelves, I don't think. So they just naturally think that because what they look at is the consumer reports that show women buying coolers. It's not about expanding the beer market, it's about taking shares away from the cooler market. So they… I think they instantly think that. No one, probably, has ever asked a woman if they like strawberry-flavoured beer. They just make it because that's where they think that women would go, instead of actually asking them. There is one fruit-flavoured beer in the world that I will drink and it's-

 

Which is?

 

The apricot ale, from Pyramid. It's my super-hot day drink. I drink it a lot at the lake, that kind of thing. But it's also an unfiltered hefeweizen, so it truly is a beer and it's just got the perfect balance and flavour of apricot.

 

Yeah, so, you mentioned you feel that women are drinking more and more craft beer. What's your sense of what the sales breakdown is of all the beer that, say, Yukon, moves- how many litres get drunk by women versus men.

 

I don't have an answer for that. A lot of it is because we are still emerging as a whole in terms of craft, slowly taking over shares. I read something before this interview about the- something about the personality of your beer, and something- the last one was- not a trend-setter, or something about drinking draft beer. And even though we're not putting a dent in the major breweries, but we are, because they are sitting up and they are noticing. Because they are coming out with different products. And I think when it comes to women it's- it'll take some time to figure out what the actual consumer break-down is between men and women, because there is no marketing- gender-based marketing to women in craft beer- we just don't have the money to- well we often don't have money to market period, let alone to be specific as to whom we're trying to bait. But I think, just as with the wine market, I think we're seeing more and more men drink wine when it was always considered a female beverage. I would say, you know, in maybe five years, it'll be a fifty-fifty split.

 

On the subject of beer marketing, I don't think it's contentious at all to say that a lot of mainstream of the marketing is tremendously sexist. How many women do you think that turns off beer?

 

Most women are intelligent enough to know that it has nothing to do with the actual product. I don't know a person has ever opened a can and had scantily clad women show up beside them, strictly because the opened a can of beer. I really don't consider it sexist because it's just- it's what they're trained to do, in those companies that use that tactic in their advertising, are charged with making money. They wanna make a profit. That format of advertising has worked for them for decades, probably centuries, so why reinvent something that isn't broken? And everyone has to believe that those kinds of advertising and that style of advertising is about quantity and a false life-style. I don't think anybody falls for it anymore. And I- and I just kind of always think about any advertising, not just beer, when it has to go down to a gimmick like that you have to question the quality of the product.

 

Well, certainly, the idea that women like beer less than men has some fairly deep roots, there's a- or at least hundred year-old roots I would say- there's an apocryphal quote from Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany: “Give me a beer-drinking woman and I will conquer the world!” Given the military fate of Germany in the first half of the twentieth century, I would say those women are probably in short supply in Germany. Tell me, where does the stereotype that women don't like beer ultimately come from, in your view.

 

I would have to say, in my lifetime, it's really been a position that has been put forth by the major brewing companies. It's the manly drink, just like scotch on the rocks, anything served neat. And I think a lot of it is the original beers were very bitter. A lot of hops. Women- the way our palates are built- we actually tend to taste bitter more than men, and that's why, say, the original Indian pale ales, even an English pale ale, was unappealing to women- it was a harsh drink. But, I mean, also think, we were also told to sit down and shut up and sit in a corner. Really, our choices were not dictated by our thought processes, it was dictated by the man in power --the man of the house-- whatever the case may be. But I think as the styles grew --and as they do grow-- and we get more and more places that are retailing specialty beers, you will find that woman that Kaiser was looking for that might've, you know, changed the fate of Germany. But I think you will see more and more. I think it's just a lot of breaking that barrier, and teaching women that beer doesn't always have to be bitter lager or light, there's a lot of choices.

 

When will we know if- when the barrier has been broken? What's the sign of success for cultivating a female audience for good beer?

 

When you find us in a craft beer bar and there's more of us than you.

 

[LAUGHTER]

 

I think it'll always be very difficult, in public, to notice it, unless there are more places that are carrying the different styles of beer and are more focused on a quality beer, rather than, you know, quantity or, you know, popularity. Oftentimes, we think that you go into a store and they don't have the product you want, so you'll leave. You go into a restaurant and you get bad food, you'll complain. Most people don't use their feet or their voices to talk about beer in restaurants. So you'll go in, if they don't have a beer you'd like, or they don't have a local beer --especially when you have local micro-breweries in town-- we generally just order something else, and we never say anything. I think you'll know when that barriers been broken when you actually see people starting to say things, 'cause I think women are more likely to speak up about it than men will be.

 

I think craft beer enthusiasts could stand, in general, to be a good deal more vocal about their preferences. I imagine female sales reps for micro-breweries are fairly rare. Do you ever encounter off-colour commentary, or other forms of low-level sexism in the course of doing your job?

 

Definitely. Especially when I started, there definitely is --it's not even so much, you know, off-coloured-- it's a girl doing it. It's more of, “What would she know? It's a chick selling beer!" You know, “Go sell yourself some wine or a cooler,” kind of thing. Where, more and more --and especially in Edmonton-- I'm well-known in Edmonton from previous careers- so it wasn't hard for me to just leap over that kind of negative commentary. I think there's a lot of liquor agents --liquor reps-- that are female that have beer in their line. But I have nothing but beer and, of course, our Solstice Vodka, which is a rarity. And of course, The Bigs do employ women for that sexist reason...

 

For the sex appeal.

 

Yes. To distract and sell, and we don't do that. So yeah, when I started there were some stumbling blocks, of course, 'cause he just didn't think I knew what I was talking about.

 

How did you deal with it?

 

I'm a learner- I love education. I love academia, so I asked the questions and read the books. I've always just believed that intelligence will always prevail. If you ask me a question and I don't know the answer, I'll always tell you I'll get back to you. But if you ask me a question and I know the answer, there's nothing better than actually saying it out loud and them being dumbfounded that you knew what you're talking about.

 

Yeah, nothing like smiting some enemies with a good dose of knowledge, Right? Well thanks so much for your time, Shelley.

 

Thank you.

 

That's it for this episode of Sherbrooke Liquor's Talking Pints. Keep your ears open next month for an episode on the annual Edmonton Home-Brewers Guild Competition. This is Lewis Kelley reminding you that April showers go best with delicious beer.

 

How long can two people possibly talk about hops? Why are so many famous authors also famous dipsomaniacs? What do government-funded scientists have to do with the modern India Pale Ale? The answers to these and other irrelevant questions can be found in March's episode of Talking Pints, featuring beer writer and librarian Peter Bailey.

Coming to you from the cargo hold of the HMS Sinkytown, this is Sherbrooke Liquor's Talking Pints. A show about beer and its most ardent advocates in-and-around Edmonton. I'm Lewis Kelly, and this month I'm joined by Alberta's most imminent librarian/beer nerd one two punch. he's the director of the St. Albert public library, beer writer for The Tomato, Edmonton's most flavourful magazine, and an enemy of nitwits the world over on Twitter. He is the ineffable, effable, effanineffable, deep and inscrutable, singular Peter Bailey. Bailey's an erudite enthusiast of all things India pale ale, so I started our discussion by asking I'm for some background on that storied beverage. We have, at your request, some IPAs. The first one we're gonna open is the Lagunitas Hop Stoopid Ale. While I crack this open and pour us a sample, why don't you tell us a little bit about the history if the India Pale Ale.

 

Well, IPA has a interesting history to it, the story of it is one of the cherished myths of the beer world. The story goes that British soldiers in the Victorian era India were starving- were thirsting for beer. It was a three-month sea voyage from Britain to India. So they found that the, you know, the standard English beers were spoiling during the voyage. So story goes that it was a single brewer in London who had the great idea to bump up the hops and bump up the alcohol to- preservatives, essentially- bump that up in regular pale ale, or bitter, and it would survive the voyage. So that guy was Geoffrey Hodgson. He's known as the father of India pale ale. And the story is that it- the enhanced alcohol and the enhanced hops helped it survive that three-month voyage, so- Beer historians have sort of said, well, you know, on that three-month voyage, it probably improved, so by the time it got up to Calcutta, or wherever, it was- it was a better beer. Now, as you poke into the story- as you look at other sources- there was lots of brewers brewing more potent beer in Britain at the time, so- the single source idea of Hodgson being the only one doing this is completely untrue. But it's just a romantic vision of things, you know, this guy having this brainwave to invent this new style of beer. The other part of the myth is it was only available in India, so it was kinda like Victoria's secret, you know, that you could't get this beer in London. Of course, that's not true at all. It was available in Britain at the time, so- Now, IPA fell into disfavour in the 20th century. Lager took over, certainly in North America, lager was the drink to go to. Then it was the Americans in the Pacific Northwest and Northern California who reinvented IPA. It's a great story as well. Started with Anchor Steam, you know, Fritz Maytag-

 

Yeah, San Francisco, right?

 

Anchor Steam in San Francisco--  they put on a seasonal, reinventing IPA, taking this old English style and adding Pacific Northwest hops to it. So Liberty Ale was the first real American IPA, sorta punched up, more aggressive, full bodied beer.

 

Well, cheers!

 

Cheers!

 

[CLINK] So, Lagunitas, or Hops Stupid, I should say, talks a good deal on the bottle about how it uses hop extract, and I know very little about the difference between dry-hopping and hop extract and hopping to it, and whatever else, but my impression from this is that it's kind of a -

 

Controversial, yeah.

 

Yeah, it's unusual for a craft brewer to use a hop extract. What do you know that and it's difference from traditional hopping?

 

It's interesting, because some of us have maybe a romantic view of beer and the production of beer- especially craft beer. It's, you know, one guy in a room making it as a- you know, really hand-crafted. Or, like wine, you know, you've got these rolling fields of grapes, that- it's very romantic, but- really, beer is an industrial product, so it's more often made in factory-like settings.

 

Yeah.

 

So, when people come up with innovations like hop extract, you have to think twice about- before rejecting it. I mean, it goes against my sort of romantic view of craft beer, but I know there is a quite a few, you know, very well respected breweries- well Lagunitas - a well respected brewer that are using it.

 

What- what is it?

 

You- you're essentially taking the oils, the bitter aspect of hops and, uh, extracting it. So, you're taking the essence of it and making it into an oil- or like a powder? A solid? It's a way of bringing the bitterness from the hops into the beer, without all the baggage of all the hops you'd have to put in?

 

Yeah.

 

So instead of having to strain the beer afterward and the- the hops eat up some of the wort as its going along, so hop extract is a way of getting the good out of the hop without getting all that extra baggage.

 

So it's kind of industrial and large-scale and therefore frowned upon by true beer hipsters, it that right?

 

It is, it is industrial- it is industrial. I was talking to a friend- a fellow beer geek- and he was saying we should all carry hop extract or hop oil with us- you know, if you're at a wedding, or a bar, even, where you've got some sort of terrible beer presented to you! You know, I was at a fundraiser the other night, and- I was actually the bartender, and- so I didn't pick the beer, though-- and it was two-- two terrible beers that- one of them being Alexander's- Alexander Keith's IPAs?

 

Yes, faux-IPAs.

 

Sort of the bête noire of most beer geeks, and, at those times, wouldn't it be good if we could just add a couple drops of hop extract to some sort of terrible, bland beer and, you know, instantly make it great. Yeah, maybe I'll try that.

 

Would be interesting- no, no beer geek leaving home without it- right after the cell phone and car keys, I suppose.

 

Yeah- I mean, the most recent innovation with hops is wet-hopping. So, usually with hops- they're dried out first- they're dried, and they're either used as whole hops, you know the cones themselves, or they're put into pellets. You know, either way, they're used- so wet-hopping is using the hops before they're dried- basically fresh off the vine, and putting them into the beer. Of course, everybody say it makes it fresher-tasting and great.

 

Well, on the subject of multiple hops, and things of that nature, I have a second IPA here- this is Dechutes Inversion. Dechutes of course, is a extremely… famous, I would say? Well-regarded brewer based out of Bend, Oregon, and their Inversion IPA has, I believe, six or seven different kinds of hops in it.

 

Wow, I've never- I've never had this one.

 

Well, I'll be curious to hear what you make of it, then. I enjoy IPAs a good deal, but I have some trouble- I like the taste of IPAs and I can distinguish hoppy beer from non-hoppy beer very easily, but I feel like IPA enthusiasts, and there are a lot of them, often say, "Oh, this one has, you know, notes of citrus, and this one has notes of pine nuts," or something, and I'm just going, "It's pretty hoppy to me," so-

 

Well, having, uh, written about beer for about five years now, I can tell you I've ran out of ways to say, "this beer is really hoppy," or, "this beer is really malty." Those are essentially the yin and yang of beers. In terms of IPA, if it's an American IPA, it's gonna have that citrusy, piney nose to it. Because that comes from the centennial, the Cascade hops, the Pacific Northwest hops, that are used in American IPA. If it doesn't have that citrus-pine, it may be an English-style IPA. A lot of Canadian IPAs are more English-style- Yukon, or Nelson - Paddock Wood. Um, Western Canadian beer brewers, they make more of an English-style IPA. Malty-er and, uh, using less of Pacific Northwest hops.

 

On the subject of flavours of hops: are these Canadian, British-style IPAs in that vein because of geography or because of choice?

 

If you wanna make an American-style IPA that's, you know, punchy, and aggressive, and really, uh, very centred on bitter, rather than malt, you're gonna use the Cascade- the Centennial. Yeah.

 

So, if I had a patch of land outside Edmonton and I went and bought, or stole, some Cascade hops from Washington, and then I planted them here and cultivated them, would I have- would my Cascade hops be Cascade-y, or would they be British-style IPA-ish?

 

No, no it's the - it's the variety of hops- or it's… you may have heard of the Noble hops?

 

I have not.

 

Well, the Noble hops are, sort of, the- the first hops that were cultivated- or discovered. The Noble hops are wild varieties. Nothing's been done to them, they've just been identified, over the years as- this is a great hop. These are the ones from Czech Republic and Germany-

 

Saaz hops-

 

Saaz hops is the classic one, so Pilsner Urquell is the classic Saaz hop-- the crisp taste to it and, uh, a little bit of a nose to it. So, those are the Noble hops. Britain has its own varieties- hops were banned by Henry VIII in the 1500s.

 

Why?

 

Britain, over the years, hasn't liked things from the continent, right? So, the hops were seen as a continental innovation, you know- terrible- what are those, you know, Belgians doing over there? It was called "the melancholy weed." Apparently, it created melancholy, and depression, in people. Also, uh, it was an aphrodisiac. Or it was considered to be an aphrodisiac by Henry VIII's people.

 

[LAUGHTER] So it gave people melancholy while putting them in the mood.

 

Yes. Yes.

 

Mixed combination of characteristics.

 

Interestingly, the hops from- the latin name is "humulus lupullun," or something- it's from the same family as cannabis.

 

Oh, really?

 

So, somewhere back in the family tree, they're, uh- marijuana and hops are in the same family, so-

 

Well, no one tell Steven Harper for goodness' sake.

 

[LAUGHTER] Right- goodness, if we banned hops- that would be a terrible thing.

 

So, it's my impression that hops are kind of the flag-ship style of craft-brewing, certainly in North America. They're the gateway beer, I would say, for many people who are starting to get interested in beer that's not just made by most of them and what-not. Is that the case and, if so, how did it come to be the case?

 

The whole history of the, micro-brewing revolution in North America is, it's an interesting story. So there's the tradition of the, sort of, inspired American inventor, you know, working in his basement to invent something. But there's also an really cool story that involves the American hops- you know, Cascade and Centennial- which were invented by government scientists in the U.S.

 

Really?

 

Yeah-

 

Why are government scientists trying to invent hops?

 

Well, after the war, in the Pacific Northwest- Washington, Oregon- the government was trying to figure out, you know, what grows here? You know, it's a difficult climactic zone- you've got basically desert- dry areas. You've got the Acma Valley, which is particular climate, uh- you know, what is it good for growing? Hops were identified as a good thing to grow, so the U.S. department of Agriculture sponsored scientists at the University of Oregon to come up with hardier, different varieties of hops. One of the ones they came up with was Cascade and it was released in '75. It was right when, you know, Fritz Maytag and New Albion Brewing was starting up in early '70s, and they looked to those new hops as, uh, something that was specifically local, and American, and more in tune with what they wanted to make. I just love the idea of, you know, the government being involved in creating, uh, not just new hops, but, like, really instrumental in creating new beer and really a new, bigger industry for the U.S. and Canada.

 

Are hops used in anything other than beer?

 

[PAUSE] I don't know. [LAUGHTER]

 

What's- just out of curiosity- what's your favourite IPA ever? What the greatest IPA in the world?

 

Well, the best beer is the one in your hand, right?

 

Of course, yes.

 

[LAUGHTER] Or the- or the one you're going to get. Uh, it's contextual for me. Do you know, uh, Nick Hornby's High Fidelity?

 

Yes, of course.

 

You know, where the characters always making lists of, you know, top five Elvis Costello side one songs.

 

Sure.

 

Stuff like that. To me, beer is kinda like that, you know, you've gotta say, you know, "What are your top five American IPAs produced in Canada?" Or something like that. I guess my favourite right now is Central City's Red Racer IPA.

 

So, to shift from IPAs to your relation to beer more generally, a little bit- You are, of course, the chief librarian at the public library in St. Albert. Does your work drive you to drink?

 

[LAUGHTER] It's funny, I did try to, you know, cross the streams of my two lives a while ago and I had a beer tasting at the library. Which was interesting. The St. Albert Library is in St. Albert Place so it belongs to the city, so I said, "I guess we'll need a liquor license to do this beer tasting." I found out that I needed seven different signatures- there was the, uh, the city manager, there was the risk analyst- I had no idea the city had such a thing- the insurance person, the manager of the building itself, couple other more signatures I can't remember.

 

[INAUDIBLE], probably- Wayne Gretzky, I would think. These people need to know about this, yeah.

 

Yeah, Melville Dewey- somebody, somebody. So, it was- it was a great success. Um, you know people were sort of taken aback that the library would be doing something like this, but- you know, it fit into where libraries are going these days, which is, you know, community gathering places- they're about teaching and learning in different ways other than books specifically.

 

Beer and writing, or at least booze and writing, have a somewhat storied history, I would say, I mean, we can think of famous drinkers who also did a bit of writing, like Earnest Hemingway, and Edgar Allan Poe, and W.C. Fields, and Dorothy Parker, and on, and on. Why do you think that is, as someone who sits at that nexus of ethanol and literature?

 

That's interesting, yeah. I saw- I noticed the other day a new bar has opened in, uh, Toronto called Hitch, and it's named after Christopher Hitchens. They were asked, "Why Christopher Hitchens?", and, of course, he was a big drinker.

 

Mhm.

 

You know, well known-

 

Johnny Walker, whatever the expensive cover is, I believe-

 

Yeah-

 

Was his favourite-

 

What's that?

 

If my memory serves. It's been known to mislead me in the past- anyway-

 

So, one of my, uh, favourite novels in the world is Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amos. And, of course, Kingsley was a famous drinker. He wrote a book called Everyday Drinking, with, uh, great essays on various ways to drink. [LAUGHTER] I don't know- I mean, alcohol's a depressant, so maybe it goes with the writer's temperament of being depressed and apart from society.

 

You are fairly active on Twitter, I would say- you have sizeable following. Tell me, how do you think social media changes the way people find and talk about beer? I mean, I assume Twitter didn't exist when you first became interested in India pale ales.

 

Neither did the internet when I first started getting interested in beer. I used to live London, Ontario, and there wasn't much happening in terms of, you know, the beer revolution- I could hear something- I could hear hoofbeats from the west, but there wasn't much going on that part of Ontario. But the internet was just starting to get going- you remember there was Pine e-mail- like user groups and things, and I think one of the first old interest groups on the internet- you could subscribe to it and get e-mails- it was beer. You know, beer enthusiasts. I think what it was was a community of interests, so- that what the internet, and what social media, is good at. It doesn't matter your geography- where you are- it's people interested in the same thing- a community of people interested in the same thing, built up, you know, over the entire Earth- that's what it does for me. You know, I can tweet out something and engage in a conversation with somebody, and- I've got a follower in D.C. who's also a, you know, beer nerd and, you know, we'll talk on Twitter about it- so, it makes the world smaller. You know, there's only some of us in communities that are interested in one thing in particular. I think it's helped bring niche interests forward a bit.

 

Do you think the ability to form these connections with people so far away is, in any way, antagonistic to cultivating connections with people closer to you- I mean, there's a new bar that just opened in town, on 109th, I believe, playing up this whole, you know-

 

Yeah. Put down your cell phone-

 

Your social network is the people who are sitting at your table and all this jazz- do you see any kind of opposition here?

 

My wife would agree with you- she, uh, never had a cell phone. She's a total luddite and, you know, she's always saying that very thing- that, you know, the time spent on a screen is time not face to face with somebody. I suppose you need to step away from the screen sometimes, as loathe as I am to admit that.

 

You mentioned the craft beer revolution that began, I don't know, thirty years ago, or whenever it was. Do you think there's any risk that this is a fad- that this will all blow over next week?

 

Well, the internet's a fad too, right?

 

Yeah.

 

No, I don't think so, I think it's growing. Growing and growing. You know, it' a part of the general food movement- the focus on better eating. You know, there's a thing in the New York Times a while ago talking about how talk about food and beverages has replaced talk about books or movies, you know, it's become such a primary focus in a lot of people's lives. You know, if you went out to a bar twenty years ago, maybe people'd be talking about the book they'd read, or something like that- now, invariably, people'll be talking about the last meal they had or something- which is unfortunate in some ways, certainly for a book guy, but, uh, you know, I 'm also a beer guy,

I'm also a foodie, so. It's certainly part of that wave to, you know- local eating. When I go to a bar now- like the Sugar Bowl is a favourite place to go in town- I look around and it's, you know, it's a younger crowd, and one of the cool things is, it's 50/50 men and women. That's one of the things that's been missing for quite a few years as beer is growing- as craft beer is growing- is women. So it's really exciting to go to the Sugar Bowl and see lots of women enjoying beer as well. I just have to convince my wife beer is a good thing. The one thing I've found is, uh, Blanche de Chambly, the white beer, yeah. She says it's not bad, so maybe- maybe I can make a break-through with that one of these days.

 

Well, good luck- thanks so much for your time, I appreciate you coming out.

 

Oh, it was great to talk to you.

 

Well, that's it for Episode 2 of Sherbrooke Liquor's Talking Pints. Tune in next month for more on what's new in Edmonton. This is Lewis Kelly reminding you that people in glass houses should drink quality beer.